Feedback starting May 5, 1998 CamWorld: CamRants: TeacherRant: Feedback Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:58:21 -0400 From: mary beaty <beaty@sympatico.ca> Subject: re:teacher rant Salutations. No doubt you will be deluged (as in Gilgamesh) about the teacher rant. As a teacher, librarian, spelling-bee winner and rabid misused-apostrophe-fanatic, I am also immediately tempted to run on and on. But I will not. (Although my favourite apostrophe trophy of all time was a sign posted at McGill University in Montreal which read "Wan't a bike?" --It was right up there with "breaded vile cutlet") I only offer these few observations/questions: 1. Poor spelling is usually phonetic. "Your, you're, their, alright", just appeared in the online writers group in various posts apparently contributed by technically gifted young men--a classic dyslexic subgroup. The sentences read as if they are speaking, and they don't need to differentiate the pronouns because they know by the context what THEY mean. We know Negroponte (and maybe Mr. Bill?) are dyslexic. They can read charts, timetables, and code--but not sentences. I have a friend who is a systems librarian, who is unable to read OR spell. Yet he is not only a good librarian, but a theatre major. He hears and remembers--from Shakespeare to Stoppard, and discusses same quite articulately. He absolutely CANNOT physically process written linear text. This has chastened me. 2. I think spelling is a sex-linked gene. In my family, it runs clearly through 4 generations of women. The male side can't spell. <grin> Spelling is an abstracting facility. I spell, I read music, I read a page at one glance. I can even program. But I cannot function three-dimensionally. I'm dangerous in a car, and I recently messed up a C++ program because I am unable to tell left from right. 3. My mother, the teacher, first pointed out the "need to know" phenomenon in 1964. Her students would not complete assignments, or engage in a learning task until they decided they needed to use the information. She was shocked (as an information omnivore like all of us in my family) by the challenge "why should I learn x, I may never need it. And if I do, I'll learn it then". We are still in this phase. Spell-checkers are your mom. They do your homework. You don't need to learn to spell unless they all crash someday and the concomitant breakdown affects your paycheck. 4. Teaching should be about learning how to learn. Everyone understands sports training (use it or lose it) but no one understands this idea in the liberal arts. They DO understand piano practice, and how to figure out your computer and customize electronic toys. But writing, spelling, thinking, speaking--have somehow been categorized as universal and inherent abilities--not acquired (and therefore honed) skills. Students do understand this better when they study other languages, especially non-roman alphabets. Grammar and spelling matter. But English SEEMS transparent--so practicing it is moot. Pity. 5. As a teacher, and the daughter and grand-daughter of a teacher, I must observe that an increasingly large number of teachers cannot write, spell, or read. I do not blame them. I understand that they, too, are products of the generation described in comments 3 and 4. 6. It's always possible to reverse this trend. A professor studying the Inuit discovered that when videos dominated, spelling/writing disappeared among Inuit students. When email arrived, writing returned. It was suddenly necessary again. Now if we can merge the need to know/need to write with learning to learn, resilient humans will adapt. 7. I send countless e-mails to webmasters about their spelling. I try to call the mistakes "typos" to alleviate any criticism. Some respondents are inchoate with rage. Most reply "Thanks. I can't spell". I treasure the "thanks". and thanks to you for the opportunity to rant in return... Mary Beaty http://www3.sympatico.ca/beaty Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:13:57 -0400 From: Craig Anthony Thomas <95thomas@wmich.edu> Subject: Reax: Teacher did the right/write thing! The teacher's reaction to the student's poor writing is right on target. Isn't offering suggestions for growth what education is about? I certainly think that it should be helping the student to develop his or her talents and skills. Education also should be about the business of nurturing civic values -- taking responsibility for one's action is paramount among these values, methinks. If more public school teachers supported and are guided by the action of this one teacher, then perhaps we can expect better students-turned-citizens. May the Saints be praised when that day arrives! Cheers, Craig Anthony Thomas Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:49:53 +0100 From: "Trevor Lockwood" <trevor@author.co.uk> Subject: Poor English American-English is moving steadily further away from all the other forms of English, including 'England's English' which allows me to understand your frustration about the poor standard of your student's spelling and grammar. As an active member of the Queen's English Society I meet with my fellows and we moan and groan, but are unable to keep the tree from falling down. Your more important point is the inability of many students to concentrate long enough to be considered as 'students studying' at all. That is very worrying, and may be the result of too much TV, too many ill-considered posts to email lists but is probably the result of poor teaching. The present generation of teachers were never 'taught' themselves but expected to absorb information as a result of contact with resources. Now you are faced with that group attacking you for imposing some standards (or attempting to do so). We need to teach students to think. That requires we teach discipline. Are we getting too old for this world? Perhaps. I now smile benignly and live my life, my way. Doesn't bring a lot of money or fame, but I am really enjoying failure. When you start up that alternative college - think of me as a possible lecturer. Until then - keep smiling, don't say too much, and keep them all guessing. Trevor Lockwood trevor@author.co.uk for the business of writing and publishing http://www.author.co.uk Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:29:07 -0400 From: John Nolt <baghera@mindspring.net> Subject: EDITING: Re: TeacherRant 5.4.98 I think this post can have relevance to the list, if you stomp on it a couple times to break all its bones, then squish it into the correct context- "How to proofread a document." When you correct a document, your tone is as important as your corrections. You must present the corrections in a manner that engenders trust, and makes the author comfortable. If you correct a document, write discouraging comments all over it, and demand a rewrite, then you will have A) an unhappy author and B) a hard time creating quality documents. The strain between the editor and the author will destroy any collaborative momentum they may have between them. That said, here are some ideas about how to proofread/edit/make comments on other people's writing: When I sit down to look at a document, the first thing I do is run it through a spell checker. If it's on paper, I scan it as I read- making the appropriate marks preferably in a bright red pen, or green, or something else that will stand out. After I've read the document, I ask myself several questions: "What is the goal of this document?" "How is this document achieving that goal?" "How is this document *not* achieving that goal?" Then I read it again, trying to answer those questions. It might take a couple reads, and sometimes, with a really long document, I will break the whole thing up into sections and proofread each section individually. After they've all been proofread like that, I will take them as a whole and ask the questions again. If the answers to those questions are satisfactory, then I'll move on to wording. If I have serious issues with the answers to any of my questions, then I'll send it back to the author with my comments right then and there. For wording, I read out loud. That's the easiest way for me to decide if something makes sense. After wording, I go through and check for style- correct spelling of certain words (like "e-mail" or "MindSpring" or "Internet" or "Web"), correct usage of dashes and commas, correct formatting of numbered lists and tables and fonts. As you can guess, most of my proofreading involves web pages. After I've done the proofreading, I send the comments to the author. Then I call the author and we talk about what I said in the comments. When I'm talking, and even when I'm writing, I (try to) make it clear that we are a team and our only function is to create the best document that we can. Together. Tech Writers and their Editors must be a team. STUDENTS AND THEIR TEACHERS MUST BE A TEAM. This should not be an adversarial process, and that's where Mr. TeacherRant got it all wrong. The problem with the TeacherRant isn't so much that the teacher corrected the letter, but how the teacher presented the corrections to the student. His colleagues had every right to be incensed, since his actions were an example of poor judgement and were insensitive, dogmatic, and reactionary. In short, bad teaching. John Nolt Technical Writer MindSpring Enterprises, Inc. http://help.mindspring.com Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:19:22 -0400 From: B Holroyd <beeline@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: CamWorld: CamRant: TeacherRant 5.4.98 I had an English teacher in eighth grade who insisted that I use proper grammar and spelling. She always found something to praise in my work, which was a novel experience for me, but she was hard-nosed about format and language -- usually, I thought she was mean. Often, I left her class close to tears. A few years ago, I had an opportunity to tell her that I appreciate what she taught me 24 years ago, that she was a great part of the reason that I am a writer. Her insistence on technique made it possible for me to survive my first newspaper editor -- indeed, to get the job. (Oh boy, the first piece I handed to that editor came back in record time, hemorrhaging blue ink. I thanked him and resubmitted the piece with all of his corrections in place.) Her praise gave me the moxie to withstand the ego-eating process and learn from people whose prime directive is clear, concise writing. If you told this student that you admired her goal, and explained that it would be better received if written in acceptable language, she has learned from the experience. I understand that teaching is often a thankless job, but some day she may come up to you and tell you that she's learned to appreciate the time you took, when you could have simply thrown the letter away and left the girl to wonder why no one responded. It takes maturity and experience before a person can understand what "learning" really is. "B" (Who believes that it's the teacher's fault only when the teacher sees a teachable situation and doesn't take advantage of it.) http://beeline.home.mindspring.com/ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 7:45:18 Subject: Re: CamWorld: CamRant: TeacherRant 5.4.98 From: "Christine A. Reed" <christine_reed@columnist.com> I wanted to say that I feel for the teacher in this instance. And, I agree with a lot of what he said about students taking responsibility for their own learning. However, I think he probably didn't understand how easily humiliated a teen can be. As a teacher, he had every right to correct her letter, but it wasn't turned into him as an assignment. It was put in his box as a business communication. I'm just wondering what about the girl's English teacher? Or, her English teacher from the year before? That's where she should have received the correction, so she would be able to communicate more effectively. Misspelling everything and running on and on only frustrates your reader, and leaves you looking foolish. One of my former managers was a poor speller. You wouldn't know it to look at him. He seemed at ease as a manager. But, he posted a notice one day to all employees and I couldn't help but chuckle a little. I made a remark, not meant unkindly. I was just surprised that a manager would hang up a piece of writing without reading it over first. He had made some very elemental errors. And, when someone knows that they aren't a good speller I would think that they'd know to be all the more careful in revising and looking up words. It does make you seem less competent, whether you are or not. I quickly got the distinct impression that I wasn't supposed to have noticed it. The fact that I had and even dared to say something about it outloud labeled me as "unkind" or even as someone who thought she was "superior". I only ever point out people's errors to help them so they won't be embarrassed the next time. If I think they know the difference and just made a typo, I won't say anything. Everybody makes typos. I think this idea that we're not supposed to say anything or embarrass the person who's made an error is the reason that so many students do end up going on to the next class and the next grade when maybe they shouldn't. Better that they be corrected in class than become laughable in the real world. Christine Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:31:34 -0400 From: John Reynolds <jreynolds@pop3.sprint.ca> Subject: Re: CamWorld: CamRant: TeacherRant 5.4.98 Hang in there. I'm not a teacher (always wished I were...) but as a professional writer and lover of the English language, I am repeatedly appalled at the level of ignorance and (perhaps more disturbing) lack of concern about the most basic rules of grammar - in and out of the educational system. Many will blame teachers. Perhaps there's some truth to it. But the roots run far deeper, I believe. I once had the temerity to correct some college student's web site - it was a basic error of fact (attribution of a quote) plus substantial errors in grammar and structure. The student not only flamed me for daring to offer a correction ("Don't you have anything else to do in your dull, stupid life??!!" was one of the more quotable comments - an interesting response from a 20-something student to a 50-something professional writer and published author), but recruited several of his colleagues to do the same thing. I was inundated with foul, obscene and abusive language from strangers for daring to identify some serious problems in understanding language rules. What's the source of the raw anger about pointing out gross errors in someone's ability to communicate? Is it excessive defensiveness ("That doesn't make me dumb, you know!")? Or does a deeper, darker, stranger chasm exist as part of the post-literate culture? Nor do you have to stray into this post-literate region to discover basic errors. Note the number of individuals contributing to this on-line writing site who incorrectly use the possessive form of "it." All right, English is maddeningly complex and often nonsensical in its rules. We all know that. But so is baseball. Nobody goes up to bat in a game without accepting a tacit agreement to play by the rules. But anyone, it seems, can attempt to communicate at almost any level and not only flaunt the rules but expect others to defend him/her in their ignorance, rejection and dismissal of basic grammatical knowledge. Then there's the good side - the more dullards there are in this field, the better it is for those of us who understand the complexities and apply them. As long as it matters, of course. John Lawrence Reynolds Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Ross <rosss@either.or.com> Subject: Re: CamWorld: CamRant: TeacherRant 5.4.98 <rant followup mode on> Hmm. I'm not sure whether to comment about the typo ("bittery") or about the content. I'll ignore the typo and move onto the content: I'll apologize to the teachers in the audience in advance: "I'm sorry, really!" (now you might want to close your eyes and not finish reading this). What a whiney bunch of crap. Who do you think taught this 9th grade girl from day one? Teachers. Did anyone do anything about her complete lack of ability? Obviously not. That this girl made it to the "student senate" I assume means that she was judged to have some sort of aptitude by someone (perhaps the teachers?). I see this constantly. I have to work with people who can't write themselves out of a paper bag. These are supposedly educated people. I'm sure they're to blame for much of this inability, but the teachers just don't get off that easy. I'm really not up to feeling sorry for the poor teachers who work so selflessly for such little reward. Maybe it's because I remember so vividly the pathetic ex-basketball coach with tenure that got stuck teaching US history after his basketball career was shot. He never let us forget that he hated his job, and we never let him forget that we hated him for it. How 'bout the psychology teacher who was diddling the senior? Was he doing that out of selflessness toward his students? I have many more examples, punctuated briefly by shining examples of good people that made a difference in my life, but there are so few of them, and so many jerks. The fact is, there are pathetic creatures everywhere. We aren't going to get anywhere trying to blame people for making them pathetic, or trying to erase blame from ourselves. We all did it, and we're all still doing it. I told my parents the history teacher was a jackass, and they didn't do anything. I in turn didn't say anything about the teacher screwing the student. A teacher passes a student up a grade even though they aren't quite ready, assuming they'll catch up; a student doesn't try very hard, 'cause they know they'll move ahead anyway. Eventually we all die 'cause we can't remember which hole the food goes in and which hole the shit comes out. Let's be honest: Teachers suck, students suck, and people are generally amazingly lazy. Know that it's out in the open, what are we going to do about it? What I've been trying over the past few months is brutal honesty. It's been a bit painful, but damn does it feel good. I don't mean being hateful, I just mean telling it as you see it, instead of trying to sugar-coat it. I'm not sure how well some of my coworkers are taking it, but some of the feedback has been surprisingly good. For those who will undoubtedly respond that this is off topic, part of what got me going on this rant followup was a recent brutally-honest editing session on a coworker's document. I thought I was going to be handed my head on a platter, but they thanked me instead. So... Any brutally honest rebuttals? <rant followup mode off> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:11:15 -0400 From: "Tony Dumont" <tonis@leadercom.com> To: "Cameron Barrett" <cameron@michweb.net> Subject: Re: CamWorld: CamRant: TeacherRant 5.4.98 Its hard not to feel a little for everyone here, people slip good intentions by on a surface (that I know is important, especially to a student senate) and good intentions think thats enough. I think what you did was noble to the cause personally... but the results are not surprising so much as to say no one takes blame anymore. They've learned from the lawyers and the system you can pass it off if your creative and lets face it, kids think they got the best excuse (I remember how many times I said "I'm a kid" and thought I was immortal :) What I am commending you for is for looking past "human" errors to see the sustenance and attempting to make something more of it, a sign of a true teacher if you ask me. The student would have been better to thank you but if your around them as much as I think you know kids don't always do what they should (they see adults fudge on things all the time-remember your not their only adult influence). Her reply that she signed her name to a letter she did not write (or apparently read) shows where we are at socially where the attitude is take a face, a name, a concept and MAKE ME SOMETHING kind of attitude. In this case the attitude was actually SAVE THE PLANET which is the one argument we do need more of but I think everyone involved has learned a little more of good intentions in the hands of those who don't properly implement them. I REALLY hope that girl learns what "slapping" your name on something means, in this world where you may sell your soul on a disclaimer you just clicked "next" on. She needs to know even if it sounds like it will make you look good, you gotta read the fine print (and the misspelled and so on). Of course everyone involved should fall back, rethink (because the cause is good) and start from scratch with a GOOD lesson learned. I think both of your intentions were lost by a little misunderstanding, her's to promote recycling and your's to promote good writing. Unfortunately blame is not easy to place here (at least not completely). I would suggest to keep doing what your doing as a teacher. You are doing more to solve the problem than anyone who could ever blame you for "thier" problems. I usually tell people who correct me in emails to blow it, of course those aren't letters for a cause I want to help... a cause I could hurt if I'm not careful as you helped to show here. Thanks for sharing...this was more enlightening than many. I fear the day when teachers are blaming teachers and the students lose the lesson. It would almost be funny if it wasn't true....almost. Tonis tonis@leadercom.com http://www.leadercom.com/tonis From: DISMO <DISMO@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:46:06 EDT Subject: TeacherRant 5.4.98 I was about to unsubscribe from the Online-writing list, but your story made me reconsider. You ought to consider the ramifications of your actions. Are you willing to accept responsibility for destroying a child's self-esteem? Think of the years of therapy it will take to simply bring her back to normal ---if that's even possible. Sadistic overlord! You have stunted the growth of a delicate flower by harping on niggling details like grammar and spelling. I wonder how you can sleep at night. How can you call yourself a teacher? You're there to nourish young spirits, not cram them full of technical details. They have calculators and spell-checkers for that. Feeling good is what school is all about. But, fascist dictator, if you'd like more fuel for your spirit-squashing campaign, here are a few anecdotes: 1) A friend of mine was raised as an American missionary kid in post-war Japan. He speaks excellent Japanese and is on intimate terms with Japanese culture ---including its rigorous school system. One day a couple of years ago, he was in an upscale boutique in Atlanta, and observed a young sales clerk having difficulty counting out change. My friend struck up a conversation with a Japanese tourist who happened to be watching the botched transaction, which had both of them baffled and amused. The Japanese man remarked to my friend: "Why do Americans have such a hard time with math? In Japanese schools, we just drill it. Everybody learns. It doesn't do us any harm." You undoubtedly have had many similar encounters. Seems the younger the salesclerk, the more likely they are to occur: 2) A few months ago, during one of my frequent visits to a local gym, I discovered that I had forgotten my socks. I went into a nearby sporting goods store to get a pair. The clerk, a nice, perky kid of about eighteen, rang them up for me: $5.76. Wanting to minimize the change, I put down a twenty dollar bill, a one, and a penny. He looked at me with deep skepticism. I know he thought I was trying to pull a scam. "What are you doing?" he asked. "Just punch it in," I said reassuringly, "You're going to give me back a ten, a five, and a quarter." He was deeply doubtful, but did as I suggested. Then up popped the amount due: $15.25! He was amazed and elated by this offhand display of intellectual virtuosity. "Wow," he grinned as he forked over the change, "You must be a human calculator." 3) More on lost skills: I was helping the friend in anecdote #1 do a little maintainence on his house, which at one point called for some deck screws we didn't have on hand. I trundled over to his neighborhood Ace Hardware store and picked up a few. I scribbled 1/4 @ $2.79/lb on the bag and took it to the cashier, a fresh-out-of-high-school young woman. She examined the bag, then looked back at me with a look of total exasperation. "I can't do this," she said, "I don't have a calculator. I'll have to call the manager." "They're seventy cents plus tax," I replied. "How do you know?" she asked. "Well, round $2.79 up a penny to make the calculation easy. Two-eighty, right?" She was with me this far. "Then divide that in half." This was a little problematic, but she agreed to go along in principle. "A dollar forty, right? Now, since one-quarter is half of one-half, divide one-forty by two and you'll have the right price: seventy cents." She was shaking her head slightly as if something wasn't right, but at this point the manager appeared and punched in my purchase: $0.70 plus tax. "It's really amazing that you can do that," she said. Truly in awe. Finally: 4) A couple of years ago, I was doing some substitute teaching as a "youth fitness instructor" in the public schools here in Marin County, California. One elementary school where I regularly taught ---if supervising games and breaking up the occasional schoolyard dispute can be called teaching--- was in Mill Valley, a picturesque, very upscale, very politically correct town just north of San Francisco. Near the end of the school year, one of the other instructors got the idea of holding an all-school track meet as a way to celebrate the end of the term: T-shirts for all the kids, balloons, prizes, free eats and other festivities. Fun for everybody! Great idea, I thought. She took her concept to the principal, who took it to a meeting of the school's Parent-Teacher Organization. She might as well have been requesting the right for the American Nazi Party to hold indoctrination sessions on campus. The parents flipped out. "Competition like this will damage our childrens' self-esteem," came the majority opinion, "Because most of them will lose." Apparently, athletic events in which only one student can emerge victorious ---even in low-key fun--- are just as evil as grammar lessons and spelling drills. The all-school track meet never took place. Thanks for sharing, Barry Willis (Dismo@aol.com) Contributing Editor, Stereophile magazine http://www.stereophile.com http://www.guidetohometheater.com BTW: Feel free to use the stories above in your doomed struggle against ignorance. You have my sympathy.